SP power upgrade

[bruce]

It's like comparing a basic calculator with a scientific calculator. Simple.

[KevGoat]

Explains it ... I never have known how to use a scientific calculator

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Luke]

My biggest issue with a full aftermarket ECU is the loss of the fine details and OEM spends ages testing especially regarding weather conditions, alternator control, air-conditioning cutting in and out, security system/immobiliser etc. The OEM ECU has a big advantage here especially regarding weather testing as they have multimillion dollar facilities to test over great temperature ranges.
The other option would also seem to be a piggyback ECU setup. I have dríven some SE's with piggyback systems. Whilst the car ran fine, there always seemed to be issues with the security system. The most notable was always when you start the car, the key symbol on the dash would flash, like it was not recognising the key.
With the standard ECU, you turn the key and it starts and runs.
Hence why I like the ChipTorque setup, as it leaves a lot of the ECU alone and really only affects the Tune.

Price is the next big factor for me.
How much does an aftermarket ECU cost to install and tune these days???
Buying new of course what are we talking about drive in, drive out?

Chiptorque would have to be the cheapest solution by far.
I knows it has its limits, but if you are not so far off how the car came out of the factory regarding mods, then the difference compared to a full aftermarket ECU surely has to be a lot smaller?

[NitroDann]

It depends what you're trying to achieve with it.

But your comments about things the stock ecu does almost flawlessly is true.

Dann

[bear2230]

As a rough guide for getting your car to run as good as your stock ECU would run it. Allow 2k in dyno and tuning.
I’ve done it a few times now and I’m a real fussy old prick so I spent the time and money to get it right.
There really is a lot to perfect including cold start, altantor control, idle dip on electrical load (lights/aircon/wipers/) they all need time to get right and sure you can drive away and it will all work fine but it won’t be nearly as good as original and you will be taking it back for fine tuning more than once. It’s just the way it is.
Here is the most important thing though.
Aftermarket ECU when tuned properly will not detonate your SP motor on the track.
All tuning needs to be checked on the dyno or your taking an 8 grand gamble if you push your matching number SP motor to the limit on the track.
Just don’t take the risk. Find a Tuner you can trust. If your in Sydney I can recommend 2 that I trust 100% and about 10 that I don’t.
If your further up the coast just give your car to ND for a week or so. Pay the money and get it done right. You won’t regret it.
Better still spend 15 mins on the phone to Dann.
You can’t do it on the cheap, it will bite you in the arse.

[Lokiel]

:
Allow 2k in dyno and tuning.
I’ve done it a few times now and I’m a real fussy old prick so I spent the time and money to get it right.
:

2K in tuning is a LOT - you really must be "a real fussy old prick" and not do any tweaking youself.

If you're prepared to tinker with the ECU yourself, and many aren't because there is so much to learn, $1200 for a "from scratch tune" should get you a decent tune that you can tweak the hiccups out yourself (such as starting in cold weather).
It's a great way of learning.
Most tuners will ask you to drive the car for a week or two, note any issues and bring the car back to address them as part of the original tuning cost - you MUST take advantage of this, drive the car under various conditions and take detailed notes regarding any issues so that the tuner can reproduce them if possible.

Calibrating the sensors and Idle Tuning takes time but you can do that yourself and many ECUs have some form of auto-tuning.
If you're using commonly available sensors, calibration tables are readily available.
Many ECUs have some form of auto-tuning which allow you to get the car driveable.
If you're prepared to do all this yourself, you should only need to pay for dyno time tuning the non-idle cells.

Alternator control used to be a real bitch to handle on NBs, I could spend a couple of hours on the original e440 large ECU one day so that it wouldn't stall when the A/C fan automatically turned on due to hitting the high temperature threshold, but on another day when the weather was different it would stall or stumble badly.
After upgrading to the newer and smaller Adaptronic e440 ECU, which added alternator control functionality, I didn't need to re-tweak it.

MegaSquirts handle alternator control much better too.

Never used Haltech ECUs so can't comment on them.

[AzzA68]

...

The most obvious feature you're missing with the OEM NA/NB ECU is a Manifold Air Pressure (MAP) sensor.
......
WIth a MAP sensor, which NA/NBs don't have, the actual air flow inside the manifold can be used, it's NOT guesstimated based on MAF readings, RPM and gear number.
The lack of a MAP sensor in the SE is another example of Mazda's "half-arsed" effort in producing a turbocharged MX5.

G'day Everyone,

Sorry, but this is incorrect; the SE/MSM does measure MAP. (Vacuum & boost.)

The sensor is in the cluster forward of the fuse panel near the brake booster, inboard of the infamous "bog" solenoid.

If you install Forscan you can see/log the value with a cheap ELM327 OBD2 cable.
http://www.forscan.org/

This is possibly the best kept secret, or most overlooked, function of the SE/MSM. Read all about it here:
http://www.mazda-speed.com/forum2/index.php?topic=31382.0

BTW:
My SE boosts to 8.5psi and is bog stock, which makes me think that Mazda quoted 7.5psi for ADR compliance and then quietly sold the AUS SE with the same tune as the USA MSM. It would be interesting to see some stock dyno figures for SE's, but I've not been able to find any; I suspect the power & torque figures might match the USA MSM.
Now that a few of you know how to do this it would be nice to know if everyone is getting 8.5psi on stock boost.

The ChipTorque option is looking very attractive, has anyone considered asking about a forum discount?

Cheers,
AzzA

[Lokiel]

Thanks for posting that link, I didn't know that about the use of the MAP sensor in the MSM/SE though I was aware of what looked to be some sort of MAP sensor on the coldside above the wheel arch (it's even labelled "boost").
I'd stopped reading anything OEM ECU related when I got an aftermarket ECU and that information was only revealed in 2015, prior to that no-one really knew what it was used for other than possibly emissions control.

[KevGoat]

Fascinating ... learn something every day. Thanks for posting that info. Downloaded the demo app, be interesting to see what it can do.

[Luke]

...
BTW:
My SE boosts to 8.5psi and is bog stock, which makes me think that Mazda quoted 7.5psi for ADR compliance and then quietly sold the AUS SE with the same tune as the USA MSM. It would be interesting to see some stock dyno figures for SE's, but I've not been able to find any; I suspect the power & torque figures might match the USA MSM.
Now that a few of you know how to do this it would be nice to know if everyone is getting 8.5psi on stock boost.

The ChipTorque option is looking very attractive, has anyone considered asking about a forum discount?

Cheers,
AzzA

I was only getting just over 7PSI on my SE when I measured boost using a SAAS mechanical gauge, prior to putting in a Turbosmart MBC which I set to just a bit over 10PSI. It does initially spike to just below 11PSI. Damn mechanical device.
I had the exhaust and intercooler already changed when I measured 7PSI.
My SE is an earlier one being a Feb 2004 build.

I do have forscan already on a laptop. I didn't know it could read boost, like most I thought the SE lacked this info in the ECU. Damn propriety protocols.
Will have to see what the boost shows on forscan.

The SE is starting to sound like my AU falcon which didn't have OBD2(had its own weird ford OBD 1.5 version with the same plug) so most scantools did not work but forscan could read all of the data in the car.

Forum discount for Chiptorque, I like the idea.
I wonder if Chiptorque knew about the MAP sensor.

[AzzA68]

My SE is stamped as compliance plated in March of 2004, so possibly the next delivery from Luke's.

Once I found the Forscan info I ran many data runs and they consistently peaked the boost at 8.5psi. That was with the Flyin' Miata TB intake/elbow, which moves the wastegate sense line to the rear of the plenum***, and without it. I've since moved the sense line back to in front of the TB, by JB welding a port into the FM elbow near the OEM position. I've since done a run or two but have not reviewed the data. I'm not expecting any difference because the port towards the rear of the plenum should have been noisy, if anything, not consistent... and the line to the MAP sensor is from nearer the front of the plenum.

*** Buggered if I know why FM does it this way; it flies in the face of all sound reasoning and has the likelihood of overworking, and heat-soaking, the turbo far beyond OEM spec. They appear to do so much right but screw up things like this?!?!?!? Cheap thrills for easy bucks?

I suspect that Chiptorque knew full well about the MAP sensor, but why tell anyone that might use that information to not buy your product!

Mazda did many things inherently correct with the SE, some things subjectively wrong, and a few things that haven't stood the test of time so well as they might. Overall it's still a damn fine car for the money. Like most I'd like some more oomph a little bit earlier and a little bit snappier, but then I'm as given to instant gratification just as much as the next person might be. ;-)

I'm interested in chasing the idea/possibility of a forum discount for the Chiptorque mod. If enough people pipe up, I'll even do the legwork.

Cheers,
AzzA

[StanTheMan]

has this become an SE thread?

[AzzA68]

has this become an SE thread?

Kinda sorta... then someone turned up with an NA6!

Actually, I think it became more of a ChipTorque thread... given the OP was after the best bang for buck for his NB SP... which kinda opens it up to anyone with an NB or NC and an OEM ECU (N/A or boosted).

SP owners should benefit from the newer ChipTorque chip; as the legend has it that the Mazda dealership pushed the release date on the tune whilst ChipTorque would have prefered to release it more refined... so there's potentially room for improvement.
http://www.chiptorque.com.au/mazda-mx5-sp-turbo/

SE owners have also shown benefit from the ChipTorque chip; as it overcomes some of the AUSDM de-tuning and inherent shortfalls of the OEM tune.
http://www.chiptorque.com.au/mazda-nb-performance-chip/

Normally aspirated NB owners may also show marginal benefit from the ChipTorque chip; it better utilises and induction/exhaust mods and can push the timing a bit more for 98 RON etc. Otherwise the chip can allow the use of the OEM ECU for an aftermarket turbo/SC.
http://www.chiptorque.com.au/mazda-nb-mx-5-miata/

NC owners can access custom tunes from ChipTorque, but I think this doesn't require soldering the ECU like the NB does. Works on N/A and boosted.
http://www.chiptorque.com.au/mazda-nc-mx-5-se-msm/



BTW I have no affiliation with ChipTorque, I just own an SE that might benefit from their product.

[Luke]

has this become an SE thread?

Sorta as it is seems to be the most popular model to do the ECU on but no.
If we go back in time we can really thank Mazda for choosing Chiptorque for the SP project.

Chiptorque is really the focus of any NB owner that still wants to keep the OEM ECU in tact.
Especially Boosted applications, SE, SP and even aftermarket setups on NB's.

I wouldn't say as much focus on the NC as said above, as so many tuners these days can do the newer cars with their programmable standard ECU's.

This is the best discussion on it I have seen to date, and I have been looking at this for many years now.

[StanTheMan]

Trust the NA6 owners to stir the pot.
it's like the little kid who who gets no attenion.

back to normal programming.